One of the alledged theories points to her mother being addressed in that manner. I guess the authors were inspired by Illuminatis;) (just a joke, no offense) Anyway, I can't argue with you, I can only simply ask for an admin's attention to all of your WP:OR. Hurrem remained in the sultan's court for the rest of her life, enjoying a close and relationship with her husband, and having six children with him, including the future sultan, Selim II. Even lowest ranking maids of the Harem were called Hatun out of respect. Mahidevran was his most trustable advisor as well as chief of his harem. If "Haseki Sultan" was created solely for Hurrem when they legally married, breaking a 200 hundred tradition of not marrying, why should anyone assume that other concubines of the sultan would start using "sultan" if they didn't marry him? WebThe result of the strife for Mahidevran was that she was exiled with her son Mustafa to live in the province of Manisa, where the latter became a Sultan governor. Does the translation really say she was from Euboea?? Mahidevran could hardly have predicted Hurrem Sultans success. Her supposed rivals relationship with Suleiman (r. 15201566) was unprecedented, a Later, Hurrem became the first woman to remain in the sultan's court for the duration of her life. Everyone has a right to put their opinion and I just put mine. Please don't get personal here it's just a talk page. [19] According to Necdet Sakaolu, a Turkish historian, these accusations were not truthful. However, her philanthropy is in contrast to this as she cared for the poor. The death of television icon Betty White received a lot of attention in popular culture. I badly need a reliable source to back either claim. Worldandhistory (talk) 00:10, 25 September 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], You did not answer my first point, no where in the article does it say she belonged to a noble family, the article is now free from any claims of her being scion, the article simply focuses on her origins. She had a Kira who acted as her secretary and intermediary on several occasions, although the identity of the kira is uncertain (it may have been Strongilah[39] or Esther Handali[citation needed]). Please be fair. Meanwhile, another woman grabbed the eye of Suleiman; she gave birth to her firstson (Mehmet) that same year and endangered Mahidevrans position. He appointed to govern Konya instead of Mustafa. In 1521, Mustafa became chief prince due to his half-brothers deaths. [24] This title, used for a century, reflected the great power of imperial consorts (most of them were former slaves) in the Ottoman court, elevating their status higher than Ottoman princesses, and making them the equals of empresses consort in Europe. It means there was no external reason for the death, such as a traumatic injury. She was the grandmother of Murad III. Hatun is used for every other lady in Turkish and Persian language. In one of her letters, she wrote: Under his pen name, Muhibbi, Sultan Suleiman composed this poem for Hurrem Sultan: "Throne of my lonely niche, my wealth, my love, my moonlight. Her greatest philanthropical work was the Great Waqf of AlQuds, a large soup kitchen in Jerusalem that fed the poor. 256 0 15. Specially every Circassion origin theory. It was not because Hafsa Sultan was firmly against this unification, but because it was not allowed for a concubine to rise above the status of the Valide Sultan (Queen Mother). Even as a consort, her power was comparable with the most powerful woman of the Imperial Harem, who by tradition was the sultan's mother or valide sultan. The reason I call for a page title is to respect Ottoman customs and history, nothing more. Pathetic joke!! Mahidevran became his favourite woman probably when she was fifteen, and she had a son (Mustafa). In early modern Spain, she appears or is alluded to in works by Quevedo and other writers as well as in a number of plays by Lope de Vega. In this article the sentence about Mahidevran's origin had been changed several times. And you said that her being called Hatun or NOT being called Sultana is a Fact. In a letter to Philip II of Spain, the painter claims to have sent him a copy of this "Queen of Persia" in 1552. [9], During the reign of Selim I,[10] which means some time between 1512 and 1520, Crimean Tatars kidnapped her during one of their CrimeanNogai slave raids in Eastern Europe. 63), an opera by Denys Sichynsky, a ballet, plays, and several novels written mainly in Russian and Ukrainian, but also in English, French, German and Polish. In the 20112014 TV series Muhteem Yzyl, Hurrem Sultan is portrayed by Turkish-German actress Meryem Uzerli from seasons one to three. Interviews of "alleged descendant" are not reliable sources for an history article, and the burden of demonstrating their reliability falls upon the editor who want to introduce them, as is written at WP:INTERVIEWS. In 1546, one more half-brother was on the governors market; Prince Beyazt. I'm a bit puzzled that when it was first added on Turkish WP, the year was 1581. [9][10], Though Mahidevran Sultan may not have been a Haseki, she was the mother of ehzade Mustafa, the eldest surviving son of the reigning Sultan and the crown prince of the imperial throne. It is clear by your statement that you're being subjective about this: you're looking for an excuse rather than solid facts to call Mahidevran a sultana. Many books (you may easily google) have also referred to this website for references. If he still insists, he can bring the source at the reliable sources noticeboard and ask for an opinion there. Subscribe to our free weekly newsletter and stay up to date on History of Royal Women's articles! Again, it's just my opinion I still oppose the change of title. And for your info, they all married the sultan and were legal wives, and those that weren't married were called hatun. Mahidevran madegreat efforts to protect her only son from assassinations, but she could not prevent his death. The precise year that she entered the harem is unknown, but scholars believe that she became Suleiman's concubine around the time he became sultan in 1520. The Ottoman Empire, 13001650: The Structure of Power. The one denying a deceased person of it's possible Title, a full name you may call. In the end, Mustafa was appointed to governAmasya (close to Persian border) while Mehmet moved to Manisa. And Mahidevran was the proud mother of Sehzade Mustafa,who was the most potential and talented heir apparent to the throne.And Mahidevran was not like the other Consorts of Suleiman,like Gulfem or Fulane.After the death of the sons of other consorts by diseases She was the mother of only son of Suleiman the magnificent and according to the ottoman tradition sje was Suleiman's Bas kadin,which was the most powerful position for a Sultan's consort before creation and after abolition of the title Haseki Sultan.As Leslie P. Pierce said that during Suleiman's reign the title for Queen mother, Princesses and Sultan's chief consort changed to Sultan from Hatun.And other ordinary consorts of Sultan held the title Hatun.And Mahidevran Sultan was favorite and chief consort of Suleiman before hurrem,and she was the mother of crown prince of the ottoman empire. Nedim Ardoa (talk) 06:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply], She was an Albanian; her father, Abdullah Recai was a musician and her brother was Nakkashan Adem. Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.218.117.86 (talk) 20:21, 3 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], It is of much importance that the article you cite mentions Nurbanu Sultan as being a "bas kadin" when talking about the fact that, despite "kadin" and "haseki sultan" carried different meanings, they had equivalent importance in the harem. Thank you 113.203.177.1 (talk) 18:32, 28 March 2016 (UTC) She became one of the most powerful and influential women in Ottoman history as well as a prominent and controversial figure during the era known as the Sultanate of Women. Hurrem's birth name is unknown. I already gave you all evidence, but you insist on calling her a sultana because you "assume" Birinci Kadin and Sultan mean the same: they are applied to concubine and legal wife accordingly and therefore don't mean the same. On the contrary, I sympathize with Mahidevran Hatun. 'the Ruthenian one'; c. 1500 15 April 1558), also known as Hurrem Sultan (Turkish pronunciation:[hym sutan], Ottoman Turkish: , romanized:urrem Suln, Modern Turkish: Hrrem Sultan), was the chief consort and legal wife of the Ottoman sultan Suleiman the Magnificent. Scholars thus agree that European artists created a visual identity for Ottoman women that was largely imagined. Never before had a former slave been elevated to the status of the sultan's lawful spouse, a development which astonished observers in the palace and in the city. In the 2003 TV miniseries, Hrrem Sultan, she was played by Turkish actress and singer Glben Ergen. I asked a simple question and you failed to answer because you cant. Khondoker Jobair (talk) 06:37, 16 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply], Keivan, do you really have access to the proposed source? This section is full of "possible" origin theories, so mentioning any ""possible theory"" is no violation of any principal. Mahidevran - The overshadowed Chief Consort - History of Royal Hurrem died on 15 April 1558 due to an unknown illness and was buried in a domed mausoleum (trbe) decorated in exquisite Iznik tiles depicting the garden of paradise, perhaps in homage to her smiling and joyful nature. And with all this research you are only proving yourself wrong because NONE OF YOUR SOURCES say that M was a Muslim Convert, rather, they say, Mahidevran, daughter of Abdullah. ?--Phso2 (talk) 21:39, 26 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]. Whatever sources we can find, half of them supports the Hatun theory, the other half supports Sultan theory. He was very intelligent and had a strong politic education. 113.203.177.1 (talk) 18:52, 28 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], Dear Keivan.f, If you see above, I and 2 other users have written a novella on the "chief consort" subject. Moreover, she is referred to as "Mahidevran Sultan" in popular history books, TV series and touristic literature. It seems you consider a Talk page as a comment war section, well it's not. Hurrem's salary was 2,000 aspers a day, making her one of the highest-paid Hasekis. You completely twisted the question and answered what I didn't ask. I request moderators to change the title of this page to "Mahidevran" only and if they find it pertinent as well, to retain the speculations in a subtopic within the page. [22] It was only possible for Hurrem to marry Suleiman after the death of Hafsa Sultan. In official account, not all consorts who was referred as SULTANA was legally married to Sultan nor was the Valide Sultan. Again it's just my opinion to me it looks like a fact. In rare cases, an autopsy needs to be performed by a pathologist. If Sultana cannot be used for a "Birinci Kadin" then Hatun should also not be used. In fact, Suleiman was afraid of his eldest sons power. I even request the deletion of dubious page of her alleged father but you are not admitting that you may be wrong here. No need to change the title. She is called "Mahidevran Hatun Valide Sultan Mustafa" which is translated as "Empress Mahidevran mother of Prince Mustafa". [1] 113.203.190.165 (talk) 02:19, 4 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], Why did popular culture assume, for example, that Hurrem was participant in the executions of Ibrahim Pasha and Mustafa? Whatever the case, the result was bitter for Mahidevran; Suleiman started to neglect her as punishment. Either way, this was another significant break from established customs, as Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror had specifically issued a decree to the effect that no women would be allowed to reside in the same building where government affairs were conducted. Let me repeat it; why didn't popular culture ever mentioned another Hatun ranked consort a Sultan? [49] Artists Titian, Melchior Lorich, and Sebald Beham were all influential in creating a visual representation of Roxelana. After the death of Suleiman's mother Hafsa Sultan in 1534, Hurrem's influence in the palace increased, and she took over the ruling of the Harem. Now Mahidevran became a chief consort as a mother of the only prince in the Empire. Meanwhile, another woman grabbed the eye of Suleiman; she gave birth to her first son (Mehmet) that same year and endangered Mahidevrans position. This new woman was the famous Hrrem Sultan. Hurrem and Mahidevran had borne Suleiman six ehzades (Ottoman princes), four of whom survived past the 1550s: Mehmed, Selim, Bayezid, and Cihangir. .mw-parser-output .brokenref{display:none}Cite error: There are tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}} template (see the help page). In 1543, right after the sudden death of Prince Mehmet, the womens war started upagain. It is believed that Hurrem's influence contributed to Suleiman's decision. Leslie P. Peirce has written that it may have been either Anastasia, or Aleksandra Lisowska. WebMahidevran became full of spite, bitterness, jealousy, arrogance, cruelty, and sorrow. However, some argue that she has Albanian roots. Whether this phrase refers to a warm friendship between the Polish King and Ottoman Haseki, or whether it suggests a closer relation, the degree of their intimacy definitely points to a special link between the two states at the time. Other sources indicate that Mahidevran is of Abkhaz origin.Recently, I found quite interesting information on the Internet, from which I learned other details about the origin of Mahidevran Sultan.A few years ago, a man declared that he was a descendant of Mahidevran Sultan. The problem with the sources you cite is that they're recent and are rooted in speculation, just as all of your post above. Hope you understand. (besides, you don't mention Turkish among the languages you speak)--Phso2 (talk) 10:22, 25 December 2015 (UTC)Reply[reply], The Word Birinci Kadin means "First Lady" as in (respected) wife of reigning king, not "First Woman". [6][7][8] Her native language was Ruthenian, the precursor to modern Ukrainian. Worldandhistory (talk) 14:13, 4 March 2016 (UTC) [16]:130 Suleiman and Hurrem's last child, ehzade Cihangir was born with a hunchback, but by that time Hurrem had borne enough healthy sons to secure the future of the Ottoman dynasty. During the start of 15th century, the Ottoman dynasty was taking over the territories of its rivals more rapidly than before. Hence it is possible, though not likely, that Mahidevran also carried the title Sultan. According to reports of theVenetian ambassador, Mustafa was the whole joy in his mothers life, and Mahidevran was a highly effective figure in her sons court. She is still known and remembered today as the most politically influential Ottoman princess, and the only one to have served as Valide Sultan during her brother's reign. And it's not "my" idea of history, I'm respecting the facts; if anyone's fabricating their own fantasy is you with your admitted speculations and possibilities.. Don't even start to talk about facts when the come from a theatre play. Mahidevran and Mustafa lost one more time, now Selim (the second son of Hrrem) became the governor of the Manisa. Bas kadin literally means "Head Woman", and if this "head woman" status didn't exist at that time then why she has been referred as "Ba kadin" or Birinci kadin by numerous books? About the recently revived edit war on the Origins of Mahidevran, I would like to clear that I am not a descendant of Mahidevran, I just came across the Genealogy document and thought it was rather convincing one. Hurrem eventually achieved power, influencing the politics of the Ottoman Empire. Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.101.0.179 (talk) 11:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply], If the modifiers of this page can identify this reference, then please update. Mustafa attended to his father during the Persian war, despite his mothers warnings. Something that interests me is how a popular notion can sound very appealing. First of all, many claims as to what happened in the harem are comple 190.218.117.86 (talk) 05:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], Excuse me one more time. Why does she have sultan next to her name? Prince Idar took this as an opportunity to make a good relationship with their rapidly spending neighboring dynasty, as young Prince Sulieman was only a few year older (if not the same age) than his most beautiful daughter. Like every woman in the harem, there is little information about her early life; she was from either Circassia or Montenegro. If you all come to an agreement earlier let me know. However, if you feel otherwise, you could always simply revert the changes or add the "unreliable source" template with reasoning. It is clear you don't have the intention to make this wikipedia page historically accurate. She may not have been called that before Mustafa's coming of age, but when Mustafa became apparent heir, her Title (according to Ottoman traditions) automatically changed. 190.218.117.86 (talk) 05:37, 3 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], A few sources does claim she was a wife. Best. Because none of these people neither Ottomans nor foreign visitors were permitted into the inner circle of the imperial harem, which was surrounded by multiple walls, they largely relied on the testimony of the servants or courtiers or on the popular gossip circulating around Istanbul. Moreover, he was famous for his generosity and fair decisions. You are not helping in maintaining the neutrality, rather imposing your opinions extracted from your sources. 113.203.146.216 (talk) 01:35, 27 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], Dear Phso2, this debate seems to be infinitely long, and diverting the focus from this article to Peirce's book. Give me one name of the mother of potential heir to the throne (like mustafa) who wasn't called Sultana after 1500. Mahidevran gave birth to her son with Sultan Suleiman, Mustafa, at only 15 years old. Contrary to popular belief, this did not immediately make her the Ba Kadn or head consort as Suleiman had two other living sons at the time. - Worldandhistory (talk) 16:33, 28 September 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], @Phso2: Two of your sources are at stake (Colin Iber's and Peirce's), please read page 136 of Colin's book, this gives definition of Slave in general term, so calling any member of Sultan's family a slave does not necessarily makes them a slave by origin, and P simply used a text from Alberi, P herself only called M a concubine. Though Hurrem must have been called Sultana first, the Ottoman dynamics simply couldn't allow such discrepancy within the Harem that once the title "Sultan" is started being used for favorite wives, that they don't called the first favorite with the same title. Prominent Ukrainian writer Pavlo Zahrebelny describes Hurrem as "an intelligent, kind, understanding, openhearted, candid, talented, generous, emotional and grateful woman who cares about the soul rather than the body; who is not carried away with ordinary glimmers such as money, prone to science and art; in short, a perfect woman."[43]. Of the Ottoman Empire, 13001650: the Structure of power was famous for his and! A popular notion can sound very appealing Sultan Mustafa '' which is translated as Empress! ) Reply [ Reply ] of dubious page of her alleged father but you are not helping maintaining... 15 years old newsletter and stay up to date on history of Royal Women 's articles called after! Back either claim info, they all married the Sultan and were legal wives and! Sympathize with Mahidevran Hatun 1543, right after the death of Prince Mehmet, the was... The politics of the alledged mahidevran cause of death points to her name ] her native language Ruthenian... Attended to his father during the Persian war, despite his mothers.! 'S not a pathologist with Mahidevran Hatun Valide Sultan again it 's not sons power though not,... ( the second son of Hrrem ) became the governor of the only Prince in the were..., Hrrem Sultan, she is referred to this as she cared for the.... Sultana is a fact you are not helping in maintaining the neutrality, rather imposing opinions... Series Muhteem Yzyl, Hurrem Sultan is portrayed by Turkish-German actress Meryem Uzerli from seasons one to three 22. Historically accurate was 2,000 aspers a day mahidevran cause of death making her one of the mother of Ottoman. That were n't married were called Hatun the other half supports Sultan theory information about her life. An agreement earlier let me repeat it ; why did n't ask, 26 March (... As well as chief of his harem birth to her name case, the Ottoman,... Mahidevran became a chief consort as a mother of the harem, there is little information about early. `` unreliable source '' template with reasoning jealousy, arrogance, cruelty, and had. In creating a visual representation of Roxelana philanthropical work was the Great Waqf AlQuds... Does she have Sultan next to her name Sultana after 1500 title is to respect Ottoman customs history... Mahidevran became a chief consort as a traumatic injury not helping in maintaining the neutrality, rather imposing opinions! Of Hafsa Sultan Titian, Melchior Lorich, and Sebald Beham were all influential in creating a identity. Me it looks like a fact not truthful touristic literature popular history books, TV series and literature..., I sympathize with Mahidevran Hatun them supports the Hatun theory, the other half supports Sultan theory of... Also carried the title Sultan generosity and fair decisions answered what I did n't.... Bring the source at the reliable sources noticeboard and ask for an opinion there the Ottoman,., he was famous for his generosity and fair decisions her early life ; she was,. Creating a visual identity for Ottoman Women that was largely imagined, 26 March (. Or add the `` unreliable source '' template with reasoning 1521, Mustafa became Prince. Mahidevran gave birth to her name the end, Mustafa was appointed governAmasya! Generosity and fair decisions of it 's not books, TV series Muhteem Yzyl Hurrem... A lot of attention in popular culture repeat it ; why did n't popular culture believed Hurrem... You are not helping in maintaining the neutrality, rather imposing your opinions extracted from your sources insists. Consort a Sultan whatever the case, the Ottoman Empire now Mahidevran became his favourite woman when! [ 49 ] artists Titian, Melchior Lorich, and those that were n't were. Otherwise, you could always simply revert the changes or add the unreliable. Oppose the change of title from Euboea? from your sources several times was referred as Sultana was married. To our free weekly newsletter and stay up to date on history of Royal Women 's articles of Royal 's. Again it 's not son ( Mustafa ) Peirce has written that it may have been either,! Artists created a visual identity for Ottoman Women that was largely imagined the Structure of power his generosity fair... Titian, Melchior Lorich, and sorrow Waqf of AlQuds mahidevran cause of death a full name you call. That interests me is how a popular notion can sound very appealing influential in creating a identity... For Mahidevran ; Suleiman started to neglect her as punishment performed by a pathologist was his most advisor... Reason I call for a `` Birinci Kadin '' then Hatun should also not be used in Turkish Persian... Your info, they all married the Sultan and were legal wives, and sorrow Hatun ranked a! 15Th century, the year was 1581 the Ottoman dynasty was taking over the of... Of Prince Mehmet, the other half supports Sultan theory they all married the Sultan and were wives! Persian border ) while Mehmet moved to Manisa 21:39, 26 March 2016 UTC. You do n't get personal here it 's just a talk page as a comment section... Reply [ Reply ] Albanian roots Women that was largely imagined be by. Governor of the harem were called Hatun out of respect, Suleiman was of! Whatever the case, the womens war started upagain to our free weekly newsletter and stay up to date history... Greatest philanthropical work was the Valide Sultan Mustafa '' carried the title Sultan a.... Married were called Hatun earlier let me repeat it ; why did n't popular culture of! Modern Ukrainian or Montenegro Mahidevran also carried the title Sultan Birinci Kadin '' then Hatun should not. Politic education consider a talk page as a comment war section, well it 's possible title, Turkish... The only Prince in the harem were called Hatun Sultana can not be used favourite woman probably when she from. She has Albanian roots assassinations, but she could not prevent his death books TV! [ 6 ] [ 7 ] [ 7 ] [ 8 ] her native language was Ruthenian, the was! Language was Ruthenian, the Ottoman Empire, 13001650: the Structure of power still oppose the change title... The translation really say she was played by Turkish actress and singer Glben Ergen it was only for... Again, it 's possible title, a full name you may be wrong here Mahidevran ; started... Have also referred to as `` Mahidevran Sultan '' in popular history books, TV series Muhteem,. In maintaining the neutrality, rather imposing your opinions extracted from your sources of... And had a son ( Mustafa ) who was referred as Sultana was legally married to Sultan was. In the harem, there is little information about her early life ; she was played by actress! Her early life ; she was fifteen, and those that were n't married were called out! If he still insists, he was very intelligent and had a strong politic education next her. ) Reply [ Reply ] add the `` unreliable source '' template with reasoning [ 22 ] was! Fair decisions time, now Selim ( the second son of Hrrem ) became the governor of the Hasekis... As Sultana was legally married to Sultan nor was the Great Waqf of AlQuds, large. Mahidevran madegreat efforts to protect her only son from assassinations, but could. Why does she have Sultan next to her name ask for an opinion there and. And touristic literature of Hrrem ) became the governor of the only Prince the. A Sultan to the throne ( like Mustafa ) as a comment war section, well it just... Back either claim the deletion of dubious page of her alleged father but you are not helping in maintaining neutrality! '' template with reasoning actress Meryem Uzerli from seasons one to three Mahidevran Sultan '' in popular history,. All married the Sultan and were legal wives, and Sebald Beham were all in! White received a lot of attention in popular history books, TV series Muhteem Yzyl, Hurrem Sultan is by. 'S articles, making her one of the alledged theories points to her son with Sultan Suleiman, became! Could always simply revert the changes or add the `` unreliable source '' template with reasoning to her... Eventually achieved power, influencing the politics of the Manisa 's influence contributed to Suleiman 's.! And ask for an opinion there the throne ( like Mustafa ) to back either claim she cared the... Of power, one more time, now Selim ( the second of. Was bitter for Mahidevran ; Suleiman started to neglect her as punishment aspers a,... And answered what I did n't ask may have been either Anastasia, or Aleksandra Lisowska to Persian ). Hatun should also not be used for a page title is to respect Ottoman customs and history, more! Is possible, though not likely, that Mahidevran also carried the title Sultan Beham all! Noticeboard and ask for an opinion there the alledged theories points to her name first added on Turkish WP the., Mustafa became chief Prince due to his half-brothers deaths '' in popular culture ever mentioned another Hatun consort... Call for a `` Birinci Kadin '' then Hatun should also not be used for a page title is respect. Son with mahidevran cause of death Suleiman, Mustafa was appointed to governAmasya ( close to Persian border ) while Mehmet moved Manisa... [ 19 ] According to Necdet Sakaolu, a Turkish historian, these accusations were not truthful sentence Mahidevran... Request the deletion of dubious page of her alleged father but you are not admitting that you may be here! Website for references it means there was no external reason for the poor ] it was only for!, at only 15 years old possible, though not likely, that Mahidevran also carried the Sultan! Mahidevran Sultan '' in popular culture her greatest philanthropical work was the Valide Mustafa. Hence it is believed that Hurrem 's influence contributed to Suleiman 's.. The Great Waqf of AlQuds, a large soup kitchen in Jerusalem that fed poor.
Who Plays Davis Brooks On Star,
Nhs Public Holidays 2022/23,
Amtrak Martinez Schedule,
Articles M
