Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits. [Mark 6:6-7], .2) Gospel of Luke time lag between being appointed and being sent One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. The relics of Saint Stephen were translated several months later to . For example, Polhill says, The most interesting ruling preserved from Rabban Gamaliel was his insistence that a woman had the right to remarry upon the testimony of a single witness that her husband had died. There are things which are not revealed and there are things which are revealed to us. It is also possible that Paul adopted many of Gamaliels teachings but, due to his youthful age, he decided to be more proactive. Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it (Proverbs 22.6). Tha A in TanAch. he wouldn't just give it all up on a whim, especially not to be jailed, flogged, persecuted, and executed for it. Paul was so entrenched in corrupted rabbinics (MAASE HATORAH ) that it clouded the vision of Messiah until Damscucs road. Stop pitying yourself, you are not being persecuted. The irony is what youre doing is exactly what Paul said NOT to do. Match. My question is, is it too outrageous to see Pauls tendency (pre-conversion and post-conversion) as one that is either starting up a new hybrid of Jewish thought or a member of one of the smaller groups already formed? Polhill does say So perhaps around the age of fourteen to sixteen Pawl went to Jerusalem to study under Gamaliel (Polhill 30). So even if he did go off at the age of 15 then that is still 15 years of being influenced by his father. This piece (above) is well done. Provocative. Modern day Christianity has more of its roots in Constantine. This is a question of fact about the content of the text in the 66 Books of our Bible. Paul, however, I think was so strongly devoted to the strict teachings of the Torah, that he had to fundamentally had to disagree with his teacher. I feel that (not competent to know) clusters of questions like these make me second-guess just how far N.T. The Bible says clearly that Paul in his words said he was a Paharisee and he that he sat under the teachings of Gamaliel. Completely different mindset in Jerusalem which forbade such things. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. If Christianity means people who follow Jesus as messiah and savior then there is Christianity, beginning with Jewish followers of Jesus and moving out to the Gentiles through the Pauline mission. Kind of long and wordy. Hes actually stating his lineage and why he should have the floor to speak. But Ive branched out into quite a few other books of the New Testament, and some Old Testament as well as frequent book reviews. How dare he question the words of our Great Apostle Paul ? Oh well. Clinton. For Rabbi Saul, the idea that the messiah could be killed is wrong but is it enough to account for a violent reaction like Acts 7 and the stoning of Stephen? scholars can go in making probable rather than possible (speculative) inferences? Which one is it? Thanks for the pointer. Love. https://wonderfulgraceofjesus.wordpress.com/2017/03/08/the-commandments-of-jesus/#comment-120. 4:2 Gamaliel forbade husbands from divorcing their wives without their knowledge. Therefore, in times when there is no clarity, we should end there and not come up with our own assumptions. As for your denial of a range of opinions in the first century, I suggest a something on the Dead Sea Scrolls, representing a more conservative view of practice than the Pharisees or Sadducees. Jesus never said anything like that, and Jesus did not see it that way. They also believed gentiles could convert and be in covenant but there needed to be structure to convert. What is undisputed is that Gamaliel was "held in . Its nice and tidy to say I just accept what the Bible says, but whose interpretation? Darris McNeely - Dec 7, 2022 | In this class we will discuss Acts 5:26-41 thru Acts 6:1-7 and notice the following events: the apostles being persecuted by the Sanhedrin for teaching in Christ's name; how a Pharisee named Gamaliel spoke up on behalf of the apostles; and the choosing of seven men to help the disciples distribute food. The people who Paul persecuted were diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that he was raised from the dead. As Gamaliels Christianity is attested in the Clementine Literature, one may, with care, posit an early date for the tradition. Study with Quizlet and memorize flashcards containing terms like Definition of 'epistle', 5 Common Denominators of an Epistle, T/F - Christ is a relationship not a religion and more. We proclaim with a big smile And Jesus is my co-pilot So Im always top of the pile, God our Father loves his children He is patient as we grow So we take another step Its The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show, As we journey with The Moose Faithfully by our side We get a revelation We have to swallow our pride, He must become greater He really is The Star I must become less, but still with Him Ill travel far, You must follow me, says Jesus In His eyes I see a twinkle He is not My friend I am HIS Jesus is The Star like Bullwinkle. There once was a phony named Paul who lied about God he had gall. Dr. Ron Mosely and the archaeology team has gone through great lengths to disprove your theory by presenting actual archaeological evidence. As a Roman citizen, Paul possessed a coveted status While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. . I wont say Im high on Jesus, and so using a mind-altering drug for recreational purposes is wrong, because Jesus is better. I dont want to be rejected by my peers. Paul was a Diaspora Jew who claimed to have been raised in a family which kept the Jewish traditions without fault. These mostly have something to do with marriage and divorce. As to pauls seemingly at odds relationship with his teacher Gamaliel, it is no odd thing for a student to differ from a teacher, especially if the student is quite a zealous one. You said that your QUOTE Quran is incorruptible. Thats like many Christians saying the Bible is inerrant. Muhammad is to Muslims as Paul is to most Christians as Mary is to most Catholics an idol that they worship, practically speaking. Im sorry to shatter your confirmation bias but YEshua nor Paul were Christians. I am one of those who obey Gods commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. [Revelation 12:17] No Im not perfect without sin, and No I dont know everything now. 3. Who was Paul taught under? 1. Moreover, Paul preached that gentiles ingrafted into the olive tree were part of Israel is a teaching DIRECTLY from Hillel. You who were formerly known as gentiles. Therefore, he must have planted these groups himself. WE are not even in this game! I meant to say for rejecting Mohammed (p) and worshipping a man who said worship God alone, Jesus (p), and adding a third God to the 1 and His son making a pagan Trinity, Christianity is anathema to its worshipped human founder (in name only and in Greek at that) who said OUR God is ONE worship HIM!. What were Pauls specific sins as a Christian? That is why there was no mention of Believe and be saved The New Covenant was not even inaugurated until the Last Passover Supper and the 2 Commandments are clearly described in 1st John. Because we must establish a matter by the testimony of two or three witnesses, especially something as important as What is the Word of God. No one else in the pages of the Bible besides Paul ever said anything like All Scripture is God-breathed. This is a good point, although I am not sure that the tradition is totally reliable. (Rom. Im sorry that Christians cant come to grips in their confirmation bias that both Yeshua and Pauls ministries was infact Judaism. But what do I do with this truth? Rome is the city that sits on seven hills, the perfect place for Peter the Roman, the New World Pope for the New World Order, to replace the original Apostle Peter in the apostate church of the Antichrist. I would like to check that reference if possible. Go and sin no more said Jesus, Dont relive that history. I guess I had better plan ahead, and save a slot for the last Pope, Francis. No research was taken into account of what the yeshivas of HIllel and Shammi taught and believed. Things will be different then. Gamaliel is mentioned a couple of times in Scripture as a famous and well-respected teacher. When the homeowner returned in the evening, he was furious. I dont want to bite the hand that feeds me (and my family). Dr. R. N. His dissertation was published as Jesus the Bridegroom by Pickwick Books in 2012. The only place in the New Testament that mentions anything like Seven Mountains is Revelation 17, seven hills on which the woman sits. (The Great Prostitute, that is.) ), Phillip, In your other post on Paul and Gamaliel http://readingacts.com/2013/09/09/paul-and-gamaliel/ You said, QUOTE: There are some good reasons to investigate Pauls claim to have been educated by Gamaliel. I pray that you will be blessed with the knowledge of Jesus Christ and Gods love through the cross for you. There is so much theological supposing these days! How can I make them understand that they should deal with Paul Worship the same way that I deal with smoking weed? The Lord Our God is ONE God Greatest Commandment according to the Messiah (p). Without such a solid basis in the Torah and the Jewish Law that he got from studying under Gamaliel, I doubt Pauls conversion and ministry thereafter would have been as impacting or provocative. For instance, Shammai believed the halachot they created that gentiles could never be saved or be in covenant and to eat with them was idolatry. I would not limit the intervention of God in the light of Pauls claim in Galatians 1 that God had prepared him before he was born for the grace he has received (Gal 1:15). - Bit Chaser Mar 11 '17 at 7:32 The Pharisee Gamaliel is mentioned twice in the New Testament (Acts 5:34; 22:3). Christian Pharisees were not unknown, even if we cannot know for sure if the wishful thinking of the traditions is true about Gamaliel and Nicodemus. whats d equivalence of studying at d feet of Gamaliel to todays education. As is his conventional style, NT Wright is overly presuppositionsal in so much of his theology generally that I cannot personally ascribe to him much status as a scholarly commentator . Very much the contrary. He is so nonsensical in his opinion and claims that one never reads his Epistles in full without thinking, Is he for real?. [Matthew, John, Revelation, 2 Peter NIV], Jesus is The Way to God The real Jesus of the real Apostles But false teachers come and pervert Gods Word With twists and turns and jostles, My sheep listen to my voice Jesus said for us all to hear I know them, and they follow me He doesnt run when a wolf appears, He calls his own sheep by name Its not the witchcraft of a distant stranger Not just repeating the magic words And then thinking you are out of danger, Our Father in Heaven wants to talk to you He can hear you loud and clear And He sent His Son Jesus to inhabit the earth So that all who want God can draw near, Real prayer is a conversation At least thats what God wants it to be We talk in the garden in the cool of the day When we are part of His family, Only Jesus never disobeyed God Hes the only immaculate conception The Holy Spirit comes in His Name Dont listen to the voice of deception, If a false apostle preaches I became your father, imitate me He doesnt speak the words of God Its just Boss Paul the Pharisee, And if a heretic now claims to be The Churchs universal pastor His words should be ignored They lead to nothing but disaster, Jesus did not just teach The Way He IS The Way, my friend Repeating the mantra of Marypaulhammad Is nothing but a dead end, Bibliography all quotes in quotation marks are the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John chapter 10. Acts 21:39 - "But Paul said, ' am a Jew from Tarsus, in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city . I would need to find an online edition of the Clementine Literature and hope there is a search capacity. He was also a hellene or hellenized jew of the diaspora as part of the culture of the greeks so he was also schooled in Greek logic and would have been knowledgeable in the classics of Plato and Aristotle, Stoism and Epicureanism. Paul describes his own life in Philippians 3:5-6, where he lists seven things ascribed to him or achieved by him: He states that he was "circumcised on the eighth day.". This message was not the Gospel. Dang, I wrote that and didnt respond to your last point. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. More Wright supposition! . So, you are posting comments just to correct people you think are wrong? I dont know of a single church that simply teaches the Bible simply and preaches the whole counsel of God, including Pauls sins and mistakes. There is no such thing as a Jewish-Christian or a Christian. And Christians do it with pride as there is no Trinity and the Bible doesnt say there is OR that God is more than 1. The alternative must be that the author of Acts was using some literary licence in portraying the event. !hum !! Love, Love, Love. (In other words, the second commandment, the love of man, without the love of God. That is the order of address in near eastern culture and especially the Sanhedrin, being the Nazarite or the one ran by corrupted Pharisee and Sadducee. I have regularly recommended you start your own blog and have these sorts of discussions there. Return to your own blog and post this stuff. ), STEP 2) Paul said; Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners- of whom I am the worst. [1 Timothy 1:15] (Response- Sin is alwasy specific. So the biggest problem with the church in Corinth was Paul himself, and his abusive absentee leadership style. Acts 26:4. How long will you waver between two opinions? What else do we know about him? Why elevate the words of Marypaulhammad to the highest place, and use them as the lens to view and judge everything else? That is an issue and is creating confusion regarding the Brit Chadashah (Renewed Testament). brought up . When and where did they first meet. According to tradition, Gamaliel and Nicodemus buried Saint Stephen outside of Jerusalem. Islam is the truth, Allah Akbar/God is Greatest. A Nazarite vow entail a MANTADORY sacrifice to the temple. etc. Cool ! So when Paul wrote his two letters to the Church in Corinth, who was overseeing all aspects of the church? Last Update: October 15, 2022. Jesus and the Original Apostles knew what an Apostle is better than anyone else in the world. Mainstream Judaism also reject Josephus and its evident that he was clearly Jewish. FWIW, the name is spelled Ron Moseley. As for burying Stephen, even if Gamaliel was not a Christian he would have been motivated to care for the dead, as demonstrated in Tobit. when did congress pass the noahide laws; what is monzo building society account? Social Science. He was a ruthless persecutor who sought to stop what he saw as an aberration within Judaism. (check out wikipedia on yeshiva, that will give you a feel for a Torah / talmudic education, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshiva), I could careless who Saul aka Paul studied with ,the fact that someone studies does not hold anything within that person thinking or make up. What is the meaning of Tentmaker? According to Photius, he was baptized by Saint Peter and Saint John, together with his son and Nicodemus. Ron Mosely and the archaeology team has gone through great lengths to disprove your theory by presenting actual archaeological evidence.. How many years did Paul come after Jesus? Well then, I will stop responding to you since you are not interested in learning anything which does not conform to your already-made-up mind. (Two other saint also removed at that timer were St. Philomena and St. Christopher. Obviously, the New Testament Scriptures were not written when Jesus was walking the earth. Upgrade to remove ads. Sign up. Even though Gamaliel was the one who stated in Acts 5:34-39 that if this Jesus movement were from God there would be no way to stop it, they should just let it run its course, Paul was still influenced heavily by the persecution mindset that the rest of the Sanhedrin had. BOSS PAUL THE PHARISEE [sing it to the tune of Rapture by Blondie], Im Boss Paul, the Pharisee My hypocrisys plain for the world to see I travel the land and travel the sea to make a convert who is just like ME, All have sinned we know thats true but it never means ME it only means YOU My sins are all theoretical Im the worst of sinners- but dont ask where. Both, it would seem, are not the case. Paul said: I became your father. ), was the portable earthly dwelling place of Yahweh (the God of Israel) used by the Israelites from the. Three hours, noon to 3 pm. Not others in the future who will follow the risen Jesus Christ. No mention of a cloudy past No hint of condemnation. You are one of a growing number of followers of the Messiah (p) Issa/Yesha who actually have figured out Paul was a con artist sent to corrupt the movement started by the Nazarene Messiah (p) and if it failed in Pauls lifetime it succeeded under the Roman Emporer Constantine and it was Paul they revered as THE Apostle, even before Nicene Creed was made up. Thus, Matthew was providing a second written witness, confirming the testimony of Jesus.). Minhags- customs attached to moses and the oral law to make them valid that were infact against Torah and corrupt. Where is your yeshiva in Houston? Paul enunciated precisely the same principle in Romans 7:2 (Polhill 30). A sacred formula believed to embody the divinity invoked and to possess magical power, used in prayer and incantation. Even if someone wants to be argumentative and say we cant prove that Judas wasnt there at the time, we certainly cant prove that Judas WAS there. Their cult leader is their hero he is always right, could never be wrong about anything specific, and he must be obeyed in all things and never questioned. No accusation against the brothers No comments dark and obscure, Writing to the Church in Corinth that is what some of you were.. I can back up my view with plenty of Scripture here is just one, written by the Apostle Peter- 2 Peter 3:2. Here is how Jesus answered that question: #1 One of the teachers of the law asked him [Jesus], Of all the commandments, which is the most important?, The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: Hear, of Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. To date, there is either historical nor tradional evidence to support Sauls presence. 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